A letter from our beautiful friend, Vicki, who has fallen for a guy who seems to be battling commitment phobia (sound familiar?).
Her story:
Hi Jane,
I've been following your website for several months, and amazed by your laser focus insights. So, now its my turn to reach out to you.
I've been dating him for three months.
He's a fascinating man, we can talk for hours and he compared us to Plato's Symposium - split souls who have found each others missing half. He says we're similar in many ways. He owns a large business and has a packed schedule. I was very busy the first month, so I only accepted a few of his date requests.
After a month and four dates, I told him I was used to long term committed relationships, didn't like a casual dating, but was seeing several guys (no sex) until something clicked.
He said it was too early for a commitment, he likes me "more each time", and lets see where it goes. We started seeing each other on weekends (would stay at his home) and one weekday night.
Every Tuesday, he would attend the opera (corporate box seats for four), but never invited me.
Between dates we never talked except to confirm timing.
He introduced me to his business partner over lunch, entertained my business partner twice, and I've met the man he most admires. He wants to meet my parents "when you think the time is right", and talks about vacationing together to Europe. He hasn't vacationed in five years.
Yet, there's been no talk of exclusivity, so last week I asked him to describe his ideal relationship - not just saying things for my benefit - but to be truly honest with what he needs, wants.
I explained we'd never fall deeply in love, have that intimate connection without commitment.
He said he likes being with me, sleeping with me, and its a process with him. I thanked him, said our weekend dating is making me unavailable for other men, and I needed to make decisions for myself shortly. He was silent and looked devastated.
He can talk politics, economics and philosophy - but can't talk emotions well. He just clams up and looks clueless. He was raised my nannies, married briefly when young, no children, a workaholic who has built a remarkable business.
The next morning he said, "we will be together, and please never say this again. I get it."
I replied," so should we still see each other this weekend?" He said, "of course!" Since then, I've continued to assert my independence, and am not as available for dates. By the way, two weeks ago, he became unavailable on Fridays and mentioned a symphony he attended. So, I filled up my Fridays ever since.
Last night, we entertained one of my guy friends who I thought he would enjoy. My girlfriends thought I was crazy, but they were very similar and could possibly do business together. It was a mutual admiration society, and he was impressed and jealous (under his smooth exterior).
I want a committed relationship, yet am independent, have plenty of options and honor your advice.
What do you see here, and what can I do next?
My response:
You have to decide for yourself if you can live with someone who is only as emotionally available to you as he is, Vicki.
The interesting thing about men like this is that this is the very reason they are so good at what they do; they can be so financially and professionally successful because they are able to keep their emotions in check!
So you know what his terms are, you know what you're dealing with, you just have to decide if you want to live like this with someone like this.
Is he worth it to you?
Are his good points, the things that you are compatible with, enough to outweigh this other side of him that you are not going to be able to change? Only you can know that, only you know yourself and what you need for this to work for you.
You're doing everything I would recommend you do; you're living your own life, focusing on you, filling in the times that he's not available with your own new activities and events, even seeing other guys - without the sex! - which is exactly what I always recommend to keep this all in balance.
So what you do know is that this is working very well for him, and he also is seeing that you very much have your own life, which I suspect is very attractive to him as well because it means you are not looking to him to meet all your needs - which he knows he can't because of his own issues, and that's probably what would usually scare him off by now.
But with you, he feels safer than he ever has with someone because you have your own life as well.
But are you happy?
Is this working for you, is the question? That's what it comes down to, Vicki.
He may be able to continue like this indefinitely because it works so well for him because it is a very slow process for him of getting more emotionally involved than he's typically comfortable with.
So while you're with him, while you wait for whatever time period is acceptable to you before being exclusive or having what you need from him to continue this, you have to be honest with yourself first and foremost.
He's not worth bringing you down if you're going to feel like you're the one on the begging end, always wanting more than he's willing to give. Of course none of us knows the future, so you have to make your decision based on what you have, what you know, and what is right now.
It sounds like you're strong enough to handle this, Vicki; like you know what you're doing by staying true to yourself and remembering you're the prize and doing the choosing and not letting him dictate the terms of your relationship. It sounds like you'll know if there comes a time when you need to say "enough" to protect your own beautiful heart. But if there's any doubt, choose you first and go with your gut instinct.
And always remember you're the one doing the choosing, and this guy is so very lucky to be with you! 🙂
Hope this helps a little to have an outside perspective, Vicki. It's always hard to know what's really going on from a distance, but follow your heart, listen very closely to your gut instincts, and remember to always check in with your head for a reality check.
We can only go for so long on potential but eventually, what is becomes everything!
Love,
Jane
What do you think Vicki should do? Tell us about it in the comments!
I'm blown away reading all those comments. I knew the man that I later on married one month prior to moving together. We had a relationsphip of eight years. I don't say it was the perfect choice, but it was what I was looking for back in the day.
I mean let's be serious. We know right away if we want to be with that guy or not. And if we want, it has to be also the case at his end. Of course we have to know each other before talking committment or marriage, but monogamy for me is a must. You want to go out with me, let's start by being mongamous, so we actually have the chance to develop a relationship. Ok, if I met an interesting guy and I have another date the day after, I won't cancel it. But if that man gives me 2-3 others dates and it goes well, I won't accept other dates with others. I mean come on, after three months people don't know if they want to have a relationship? It's way too long, wake up, in our fourties we will be dating 5-6 men in the same time and won't have sex with no one in the meantime? Let's just be serious for a second here.
YES you have the right to know after 2-3 months if the relationship is on or not. YES you can talk about monogamous relatioship right at the first date (saying that this is what you are looking for). NO, don't wait six months in the limbo not knowing if you are in a relationship or not. This brings out a lot of anxiety.
Be clear of what you are looking for and if the sexual attraction is there go for it, but mention that once you had sex, you want to try at least to have a committed relationship. If they are not into it, you already knew of it at the first or second date, before even having sex anyway.
Of course you never know someone 100% and cannot be sure if the relationship will work or not. But if the person is keeping you busy without committment, just put cards on the table. I bet they will say that they are not that into you. So run!
Like you said I think she should really follow her heart. Her instinct can't fail her. All the answers lies within her.
The past Will predict the future in this case.
What he has been showing you these 1 or 2 months, that's the way
He likes it.
I do not think your rushing. You know what you want , it sounds that you want a man
Who you can date. And maybe get really into a relationship.
To me that sound great! I am only doubting that he is that type of a man. He sounds like the wind.
Where the wind goes, you have to follow him! Very exciting, but it will get you tired!
I believe if you really like someone, really like ! These foolish words like "I need time"
Or "emotional baggage"... And you've had several dates. Whatever it is, it sounds to me that he does not really like you. Or something is holding him back( could be anything, for example fear or other personal issues )
Because if you like someone ( means you feel joy/happiness/sexy) around that person.
You will make the space or time to get more involved and reach out.
Why? Because you've just found a great person, and you do not want to loose it!
You want te spend time with him or her to get to know them, to share that feeling of love and joy.
And off course time will tell if it will get more serious or not, but I think that's a part 0f dating and finding love.
So Vic if you want to wait till he is ready you can. Only don't fool yourself by falling in love along the way( I mean
While your dating with him etc. and he still does not want to commit) . Don't start to believe in fairy tales...
This happend to me once, let me tell you . A woman can fool herself very good! Because you don't want to
Sea the reality! Or you'll get so involved, you are not even gonna feel that your on the wrong path.
Good luck and I hope you'll choose what feels right!
Wow!! If someone talked about a commitment to me after only three months, I would run away screaming! Come on. We need time to get to know people. You blow it when you stay overnight too soon. You blow it when you have sex too soon. AND if there are things like the opera that he goes to on a regular basis, and he doesn't invite you? What?? You want a commitment while you are seeing other guys....... Are you serious? Take a moment and read what you wrote. All the information is there. You are not happy and will not be happy with this guy. In trying to show independence, you stirred up a bit of distrust. I'm sure that was a mistake but it is done. Skip that part next time. Slow down and try it again with someone else. A man will ask YOU to be exclusive with each other when the two of you are comfortable with each other. Take your time.
I agree with this
Hi Vicky. Thanks for sharing your story with us. :-0 ) . The main theme that came out of your story is on attachments. People really fail to understand the importance of this and how it can deeply impact romantic relationships. I will debrief you very quickly. There are 3 types: 1) secure- this is the kind of person you want to connect with 2) anxious- this kind of person is always questioning themselves and their partner and may come across as controlling, or the really insecure type- unable to hangle change in the relationship etc…- 3) avoidant- this person cannot handle close intimacy with others. Your “connection” is clearly the avoidant type. I will focus on this one. “Avoidants” typically can only handle so much intimacy in romantic relationships and have a “bubble” around them to protect themselves so that people don’t get too close. They try to avoid intimate talks and avoid dealing with issues in a relationship because this makes them vulnerable and the problem solving can serve, in part, to draw 2 people closer. (They don’t want this…too much discomfort for them.) This has manifested itself and I see it in many areas of his life according to your story: - he’s a workaholic so this way he can immerse himself in work rather than in relationships; “please never say this again….” He’s avoiding working out issues between the both of you as he is avoiding the issues. He refuses to commit to exclusivity or true commitment. He’s scared Vicky--!! He limits his amount of physical contact with you.. i.e. “…but never invited me.” … Married briefly when young and it was brief—he’s not dealt with his hurts, with his issues and fears Vicky. I believe a BIG part of all of this is what you said and it really hit home with me. “He was raised by nannies…”…He likely lacked a secure, nurturing upbringing from his parents, preferred to be left “to the side” of “strangers”. I highly doubt they were very affectionate or even “present” and nurturing even when he was present with his parents. They may have been aloof as well. Unfortunately Vicky…and for all others inthe same boat, unless he is currently working on his issues AND COMMITTED to resolving them, he will NOT change his behaviors. He may "react" in a sense that gives you the impression that he is willing to negotiate or change but it's about control and he wants it. He was devastated by your response...You will have to settle for less than the ideal for your life. I found a book which proved to be INVALUABLE to me and it’s called ” Attached. The New Science of Adult Attachment and How it Can Help You Find-And Keep Love. “ by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. It’s FANTASTIC and it’s help me grow and learn immensely! Much of what I’m stating comes from this outstanding book and it’s been highly endorsed by John Gray, author of “Men are from Mars, women are From Venus.” After several dates and along with asking the right questions, I can get a good idea where this will be or not be heading. Another big mistake that people make ( including mistakes I’ve made too!), is to wait for a situation to better itself or waiting for someone to change. It’s a TRAP! The good nature of people looking for stable love is to be naturally supportive by waiting to some degree or just hoping for things to change… Too many sad stories to tell about that one and by “waiting”, you are also setting the parameters or boundaries to the relationship that it’s “ok” to not have your needs met in the beginning, etc. . It’s good however that you are independent Vicky and that can be a great source of strength!! You’re on the right track!! We ALL need to ask ourselves and really be aware of intimacy issues when we date others in the beginning and look for red flags. We need to find people who are where “we’re at” and who want what we desire…right from the onset!!!!--someone who is too scared or insecure or needy or too distant…we need to see these things from their onset and if they are not dealing and committed to change, we need to learn to walk away before we leave the relationship broken hearted.
From my heart Vicky, all the best!! …
Luc
Gee that was great reply to her. I wish you were closer to give me some advice. !! Men do not like to talk about anything that makes them uncomfortable— gee that irritates me!!
Loved Jane’s reply and this reply! And this is so true what you said: “We need to find people who are where “we’re at” and who want what we desire… ....” If we looked at it like this, their behavior is not about us or anything we need to change/win over/prove/be patient on/understand/over-compromise. It all helpful indications they are Not where we are at and/or do Not want what we want. And the latter is key, otherwise could end up in an unhappy marriage.
Why are you pushing so hard for a commitment when you've only known this guy such a short period of time? Why not take your time to get to know him better before strong-arming him into something he's clearly (and wisely) not ready for yet? Most of us are on our best behavior the first few months of dating. You can't make good judgements about his character for at LEAST six months to a year. Then you'll know if he's relationship material because HE will ask YOU for a
commitment. Quit pushing & threatening him unless you really want to drive him away. In his mind it needs to be his decision to commit. Give him the space and respect and time he needs to decide if that's what he wants too. Hard pressure tactics aren't very effective with most people even if they WANT a committed/exclusive relationship.
He says he likes you "more each time" and "let's see where it goes". What have you seen in three months time as far as an increase in his interest in you, and have you seen a steady increase in inclusion into his life?
He likes sleeping with you, (of course he does). One thing that really bothers me is the part where you aren't talking inbetween dates. Do you feel you can pick up the phone and call him at any time, just to chat with him? Do you know anything of the details of his daily life and he yours, details that people in a relationship naturally fall into knowing? How nice he has it! He has complete control over how this relationship, which is not much of a relationship, goes. How's it going as far as meeting his friends? How's it going as far as you meeting his family? Is he making you a priority in his life? We just came through the holiday season. Were you together at all on any of those days? Is he taking an interest in your life? It sounds like this is at a standstill. How do you feel about that? Watch carefully for signs of things going backwards, such as cutting you out now on every Friday, What's up with that?
The other part that bothers me is where you told him that your weekend dating is making you unavailable for other men. Silent and devastated looks mean nothing without action. Anyone can be silent and look devastated when they have nothing else to offer someone. And then he further cuts off any conversation on the subject. Why would he not want to talk more about it? It's because he has nothing more to say on the matter, and he's hoping you'll drop it so things can stay just as they are. I am sad to say that I spent a whole year and a half of my life in a similar situation, where nothing ever progressed, but ultimately started going backwards. I have to take responsibility.....I let it all go on. The thing that finally got me to end it was because I didn't want to go through another holiday season getting just a lousy "Merry Christmas" text from him in lieu of actually spending the time with him. Think of it this way.....if he's emotionally unavailable right now..... do you think these emotions are just suddenly going to be there one day when he wakes up? What he's giving you now is all he's got and he's not going to change unless he wants to. And most of those types have no motivation to change because they're already having everything just the way they want it....there's no incentive to change.
Jane is right on in everything she says. It all rings true, so I hope you can take it in. Here's an important Maya Angelou quote: 'Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.'
Best wishes.
We spent New Year's Eve together and we have an honest, authentic relationship. It's been 3 months since I wrote Jane- 6 months of dating. Since I confronted him with my "truths", he revealed that he was still seeing an ex girlfriend (he broke off engagement- just not a love match!) on occasion during the week. It explains the ambivalence I felt. They both are dating others and have a friendship now. We continue to see each other on weekends, but eyes are wide open. We have had dinner with my ex boyfriend and his new financee- and he has advised me on my business. It is what it is, and works for right now!
I think the very fact that she's writing to you Jane is a reflection of the fact that she's not truly happy about this situation. If you are happy with something or able to live with it, you by default aren't typically writing asking if you should stay or go, because you are satisfied with the situation. I also think Nina hit on a excellent point. There is something a bit manipulative about the fact that Vicki wants this man to commit, but is in fact doing almost the same thing he is doing as a means to try to "win" him over. The fact that this is even taking place is an indication that this is not a relationship that should proceed forward. I think he's being very direct about what he wants, and Vicki is hoping to back door him into a relationship by playing on his jealousy. Do you really want to have a relationship with someone who cannot see on his own the benefits of being in a relationship with you? You will never feel on solid ground with this guy. You'll always be waiting for him to make the next step. As someone else pointed out. You've only know this guy for 3 months. In the past I would do the same thing not realizing how alarming this actually is. You essentially don't know enough about someone after 3 months to already be in a committed relationship, besides the fact that you feel overwhelming attracted to them. Attraction does not equal commitment or long-term potential. From the behavior this guy is displaying he is not capable of long-term commitment. I think the best question here Vicki is how commitment-phobic are you? Wanting to push someone else into a committed relationship so early on, is indication of issues with commitment as well. We don't just meet these type of men out of nowhere. We attract what we ourselves are. That was a hard thing for me to accept myself, as I always was too busy looking at the other person's issue to see that my own was hiding behind his. I think Vicki you should keep it moving. Date other men, and continue to move on away from a relationship that is clearly not meeting your needs.
I agree with you- 3 months is not enough to know someone. I do think it's enough time to determine IF they are possibly interested in a committed relationship. Most men will tell you, up front, what they want. No strings to possibility of marriages- I've heard it all.
I find this a very interesting response.
I am going through exactly the same thing as Vicky although I have been seeing my guy for six months and I am not seeing other men. I never even thought to look inside myself and then realised that preciously... I am usually the one who cannot commit in past relationships. What does this mean? I'm so confused... I desperately want this to work because we have the most incredible connection but why can't he commit!!??
When you say we attract what we selves are - how do we overcome that???
Thankyou for your advice.
Dear Jane:
I've enjoyed several of your inspirational articles. You have a kind heart and supportive nature that is remarkably uplifting. Thank you for your empowerment of women. With great respect for your positive spin, I would like to add a cautionary note regarding Vicki. You mentioned that she is independent and needs to find a relationship to suit her needs. That is so very important. However, you were too kind in overlooking her control issues regarding the gentleman she is dating while "seeing other men". She is demanding his monogamous devotion to herself, yet modeling rejection of that ideal with her own behaviors. When he delayed the bow to her ultimatum, she retaliated and resorted to manipulative tactics. She has a different set of standards for herself that are not in keeping with what she expects from her independent mate. She needs time alone to reflect on mutual reciprocity before she will find anyone willing to stay for the long haul.
Best wishes,
Nina
I don't think I fully agree with this. I don't see how she is living to different standards than she expects from him. She wants a committed relationship with him, and he doesn't want one. Just because she wants a committment from him, doesn't mean she has to be exclusive to him while he refuses to commit to her. In fact, that's a terrible idea. I think she is doing the right thing seeing other guys at the same time. If she wants a committed relationship, and he is happy with something casual, it is good for her to keep meeting other guys in case he doesn't come around, or someone else does. Maybe she'll find a guy who does want a commitment. Or maybe this guy will realize he is more scared of losing her than he is of commitment.
I don't believe that being exclusive should be one sided. In past relationships, I always shared my relationship expectations up front. I say, "I'm not certain if you're the one, but I do want a committed monogamous relationship that may lead to marriage. Is this what you want also?" In no way would I demand a commitment from a man who has no interest. I'm simply finding out if we hold mutual relationship goals. Some men will tell you they're never getting married again. Others may say they are just testing the waters after a divorce. That's what I want to hear their truth. And, rather than get upset with his answer- I thanked him for being honest. That's why we continued dating. It's now been 6 months since we met, we have a respectful relationship and he's become a business mentor to me. With my past 4 relationships (from 1-5 years long), I've been fortunate to remain friends and have even met their girlfriends. Honesty, not manipulation, wins in the long term.
Don't second-guess yourself here, Vicki; you knew what you needed to do and say here to protect your own beautiful heart before you allowed yourself to become any more involved with him and I think you did the right thing. And while it's certainly not possible to really get to know someone deeply in three months, being honest with yourself - and them - and finding out where they stand early on is absolutely the best way to go in with your eyes open rather than simply assuming you're both on the same page and setting yourself up for so much unnecessary heartbreak when the truth reveals itself all too clearly down the road.
We all share far too many stories of heartbreak because we assume rather than putting ourselves and our needs out there and being direct and honest from the outset. When we know where we stand, when we know where he stands, everything becomes so much easier. It is only then that we can make our wisest choices, and our best decisions based on the reality of what is and not the potential of what we so want it to be. I'm so glad you were able to find your peace in your decision, Vicki; because in the end, the only person you answer to is yourself.
I did this as well, made it clear that , "I'm not certain if you're the one,” “
and then explained something similar but a littles different that:
“I am only dating at this time to see if marriage is the cards, otherwise I am happy without dating.”
And I too was nice to whatever they said bc I just wanted the truth and mostly gauge their answer for myself.
What is interesting is that what I felt /interrupted about their answers changed! As did my question bc it started off more like yours and then ended up with what I pasted above.
As I got older and realized I was content with my life but wouldn’t mind seeing if marriage is a possibility (hence why I didn’t say the exact same thing as you; bc I myself was no longer interested in long term relationships that “may” lead to something ),
The response “let’s see how this goes” which I totally didn’t mind in my 20’s or 30’s became more of a red flag to me .
They didn’t have to know — I didn’t know either and I didn’t want rush judgements— but they too had to have the same goal: that they feel marriage minded, and so are looking and evaluating to see if I could be their mate.
And since we both understood that then if one of us decided it more likely a no, they would let the other know as well so that person can make an informed decision.
I would also set dates in mind of by when I wanted to reevaluate, but inbetween those dates, I tried to just be me and live my life and enjoy them and not stress (but be observant of red flags).
When a date I had set rolled around, I would look to see if I felt there been some progress or not. This was mainly bc I definitely didn’t want to get stuck in another long term relationship that did not end in marriage.
I think we all need to evaluate where we are and decide what answers will suit us at this moment, then perhaps give the other person time.
I have found that 6-9 months to a guy is more like where are at 3 months, as many can be slow to realize how they feel and/or time might seem quicker to them as well. But around then there should be a step forward (like asking to be their exclusive girlfriend). That is assuming you haven’t chucked them before then (bc definitely do after 3-4 months if there red flags, it rarely gets better after then)
Dating is hard bc sometimes we can feel so much and think so hard and we care so well.
make yourself less available to him. if he really wants you he will turn around and chase you. if he doesn't. then let him go.
I think she is in a hurry a bit with committment talks. She has known the guy for only a couple of months and she talks about a full and total committment already wow! She should take it slow, see him no more often then once a week and by all means avoid any committment talks for at least the first 6 months, and even then take it very slowly and carefully. Cause not only will she freak out the guy, but even if the guy would agree, would she really want a total and full committment with somebody she only knew for a couple of months if she were in her true mind, and not infatuated with this man.
Same old storey I read on every blogg re the girl wanting commitment. You aim to get the commitment before you sleep with the guy. As they say why get the cow when you can get it for fee. This is happening world wide where woman sleep with men too soon. It suits him why would he change?